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Discussion in 'General' started by Meangene45, Apr 1, 2019.
Before I say anything, is this your premise?
Everything else is supporting.
No its just a part. No twisting my words remember?
Not surprised that hit a nerve with you, being a mark and all yourself.
I am not twisting anything.
Usually when someone is making an argument, they start with their MAIN point and throughout the body, they are using supporting evidence to support that MAIN point.
So is your MAIN point ?
"I think Jericho is the goat because he managed to reinvent himself over the years to stay relevant with the crowd."
Nomura will be Triple Crown Heavyweight champion by 2025
That PCO cut
I guess you can say that then but to me it just starting with one point of why hes the goat.
Sure, Chris Jericho is one of MANY pro wrestlers that has reinvented himself over time but why can't we simply acknowledge THAT for being it's own separate skill WITHOUT using THAT as the reason for him being the GOAT?
Why can't we simply say, "Chris Jericho has arguably reinvented himself more than any other wrestler in recent history."
I think when we use THAT as the reason for him being the GOAT, I think it is a morally dishonest argument.
He can be your favorite and you can feel however you want to feel. But I think there should be a distinction between what he brings vs. What the Greatest EVER brings.
(Note: As I mentioned before, cross-generational arguments are pointless because the business is ever changing and we weren't born to experience EVERY wrestler that has ever lived.).
So I will simply look at everything starting from 1990, which is around the time I was able to THINK about what I was watching.
I feel like saying Chris Jericho is the best ever is similar to the, "Lou Williams is a HOFer" argument.
Sure he is ELITE at HIS role, but his role has never been in a featured position.
Sure, you CAN dismiss this but I don't think it is FAIR to those that have been the face of companies to be overshadowed by someone that has never been asked to do so.
If Chris Jericho did everything that he did and had John Cena's platform/role, sure we could discuss him as being the Best, but he is a support player.
Chris Jericho Google search suggestions
First of all thanks for the well thought out response i appreciate that.
I feel thought if i cant use the reinventing himself over the years you cant use the face of the company to determine his goatness. Esp in the fave of the company argument you always throw out. I explained why you cant use this in my first post.
To continue this discussion i think we have to come to what qualities determine goat status in this business. Ex in ring work,popularity,mic work,ect. Then we can go from there.
I am not sure why being the face of the company should be thrown out as a qualifier.
Sure you explained why you don't want to (conveniently) include that in the equation, but if we are talking about greatEST of all time, how can you include someone that has never been the greatEST of his own era?
When it comes to being the best of all time (if you want to even do that), then wrestling ability doesn't rank AS high for ME.
I acknowledge the biggest stars of the Last 30 years were NOT the best ring generals and I am fine with that.
Position on the Card
Star Power (Popularity)
Ring Work (To a smaller degree)
That is what I am looking at when I am thinking about THIS topic.
because being the face of the company means nothin in this business. We all know its subjective on if the booker or whoever in charge(vince) personally likes you.
Was hogan the best wrestler ever? No he was the "face" because vince liked him and "made" him. Same with warrior, Cena, the rock ect. Looked what happened when Dbry got over. I took the fans threatening to riot for him to put him over then as soon as he got hurt he basically forced that man to retire. Hogan got hurt and he let him keep the title for a whole damn year not wrestling. Same with macho forced that man to the desk saying hes to old but put the undisputed strap on hogan at what 50?
All im saying is being the face of the company means nothing when its not based on your skill but rather who likes you.
You are also missing the fact that being the face of a company doesn't guarantee a performer success.
Cena, Ultimate Warrior, BRet, HBK, Sting, were ALL faces of the company at one point but they aren't in contention for the GOAT conversation either. A wrestler has to perform in that role, so to dismiss it as simply, "VInce likes him" is a HUGE understatement and simplification.
So based on this logic, why is Jericho beating the Rock/SCSA being used as one of your arguments?
This whole conversation is about WRESTLING. It isn't necessarily skill-based. It is politics and performance.
So please pay attention to the slippery slope you are creating when dismissing things using the, "its not based on your skill but rather who likes you" argument.
EVERY booking move in wrestling can be simplified using that same logic.
So if you want to throw anything out, you have to throw it ALL out.
See this is where we disagree ring work is very high on my list.
So you Saying Jericho not top 5 popular?
top 5 Mic work? Top 5 ring work? Plus had plenty of main events? (i would also say those wcw opening matches were "main event" matches because the people came to see the cruiser weights. Remember you said you only go by what you seen so 90-today so no flair dusty ect because their best work was before 90.
I used the rock/scsa argument because they were considered the "face" of the company at the time and he beat them. Obviously vince trusted him for that.
I hear what your saying but would ring skill make a normal person not vince like you?
So far it’s been Thundercat, Talib, Teyana and Chance is up next..
So you Saying Jericho not top 5 popular?: No (Cena, Hogan, Savage, SCSA, Rock, HBK, Bret Sting, Warrior, Undertaker are all more popular. And I could go on if I include wrestlers in other countries).
top 5 Mic work? : He has an argument
Top 5 ring work?: HELL no. (Not even sure why this was asked).
Plus had plenty of main events?: Ok, and? So has Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero. So has HHH. So has Daniel Bryan. So has CM Punk. All of those people have what in common? Support Players.
So again, I am just not seeing IT.
got back from watching The Peanut Butter Falcoln, cool to see Jake the Snake Roberts and Mick Foley in it